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<moderator> Welcome. Anyone have a question
for Tom?
<tstein> Hello. Don't be shy. Fire away.
<kme211> How do you suggest a website makes use of a
community feature to nurture their relationship with their
customer?
<kme211> I know that was a kind of broad question...
<kme211> but really I'm just looking for any caveats
you may have on using this feature / strategy
<tstein> Community is one of the most important features
of the Web, from an information, communications and marketing
standpoint. The key, I think, is to provide a good content
foundation with true relevance and to facilitate community
interaction. It's not easy to get this right.
<tstein> In terms of caveats, some sites and categories
are simply not right for community. There has to be a real
need for community based interaction.
<kme211> what about reviews on amazon.com...do they
have the right idea?
<tstein> reviews on amazon are great, but that's not
really community.
<kme211> could you give me an example of a well executed
community development?
<tstein> Here's a great category for community -- video
game players. Gamers we call them. They love to share information,
tips on playing, "cheats" -- sites that cater to
this in an authentic way add real value to the consumer experience.
<kme211> But sharing information with other readers
by means of customer reviews isn't the same thing?
<tstein> Here's another great example -- the parenting
category. Parents, especially moms, have a tremendous need
and desire to share experiences with each other. Community
functionality on parenting sites enables them to do this.
<kme211> oh ok
<tstein> Reviews kind of are the same thing, but I don't
think they go deep enough. It's a nice, interactive, involving
thing...but not community.
<kme211> so what could they do to take it to the community
level?
<tstein> hey, I'm an agency guy. I can't be giving Jeff
Bezos tips for free
<tstein> seriously, it probably has to do with defining
communities of interest -- say people who love mysteries,
and building segmented communities within the overall amazon
experience.
<kme211> okay...you're right...sorry I'm a student who
is trying to figure out the community
<shannon> Tom, can you tell me a little about what you
do, what your role is in Interactive Marketing?
<tstein> OK. I'm president of an ad agency that does
lots of interactive (and traditional) marketing for consumer
and b2b brands -- blockbuster, the new york times, technology
companies, etc.
<amy> Do you think banner ads are obsolete?
<Amy> If so, what will replace them?
<tstein> Banner ads are obsolete and increasingly irrelevant.
They are being replaced everyday by all sorts of formats.
Larger sized, fixed place units. Flash and DHTML units. Streaming.
Skyscrapers. Shoshkeles.
<Amy> What about pop-up ads?
<tstein> pop-up ads will go away. they are kind of effective.
But research is showing that, whole click rates are higher,
consumers' perceptions of brands that use pop-ups decreases
-- because they are so annoying.
<kme211> what career path did you take to get you where
you are now?
<tstein> I started as a copywriter. When I turned 27,
I decided I was smarter than my employers and started an agency.
Here I am, a bunch of years later.
<kme211>If I want to get into account management would
you suggest going agency side or client side?
<kme211> where do you get the best experience?
<tstein> agency side.
<kme211> so I should try to get an internship agency
side?
<tstein> sure. Get an internship agency
side agencies are always looking for smart, eager interns,
we have one now that I'm thinking about bringing on staff
full time in account management.
<Shannon> What exactly do you mean by
interactive marketing? To me, I think of that to mean Internet
marketing which at first impression can be annoying because
of the use of banner ads, etc, (which I'm glad to hear are
going out of style)... but the companies you mentioned aren't
notorious for those methods, so what type of work do you do
for them?
<tstein> we do a lot of work for companies that's interactive
-- but almost no banners. We do a lot of permission-based
email marketing. We develop approaches and formats for advertising
that are fun, entertaining, relevant and add value to the
consumer experience. We shun the crap.
<kme211> I read in adweek that the response rate for
permission-based email marketing can be as high as 30% have
you experienced this rate of success?
<tstein> we have experienced that rate of success. But
it is uncommon, especially as email marketing has matured,
people are more used to it, so response rates go down. We
see anywhere from 1% to 5-7% -- higher for promotions and
sweepstakes.
<kme211> how many people work in your agency?
<tstein> about 30. a year ago it was almost twice that.
We got slammed by the economy and 9/11. 2001 was the toughest
year in the agency business that I have ever experienced.
<Shannon> What other types of interactive marketing
do you come up with, or is it more tailoring a mix of methods
for each company, rather than inventing new methods for each?
<Amy> With all these low response rates, is Interactive
adv. considered successful?
<tstein> Shannon, it's a bit both. We continually try
to use existing methods/techniques in refreshing, relevant
ways. And we try to bust through using new technologies or
approaches that literally have never been used before.
<tstein> Amy, depends on whom you talk to. Generally,
interactive is considered successful. But many marketers have
had less successful experiences, probably because they don't
understand the medium
<tstein> There was a very interesting study released
today about the efficacy and efficiency of online advertising
vis a vis other medias. Anyone see it?
<tstein> we're doing some very interesting work right
now for the IAB -- Interactive Advertising Bureau -- about
the evolution of interactive marketing among traditional companies.
Anyone interested in that?
<Amy> What portion of their adv. budget do traditional
companies spend on Interactive adv.?
<kme211> where is the study?
<tstein> Amy, it varies a lot. The average is 2%. what's
interesting is that online represents 12-15% of people's media
consumption; yet marketers are underspending in the medium
based on that metric.
<tstein> go to msn.com and click on the advertiser section
<Amy> Has it increased over the years?
<tstein> It is holding steady as a percentage. The real
need in the industry is to have it take its rightful place
in the mix, at a far higher percentage of spending.
<kme211> the IAB also has a 7 page spread in ADWEEK
this week which was interesting
<kme211> it really raised my awareness of the IAB and
what they do
<tstein> yes. Interesting. That's about measurement,
which is a very complicated and important key to the growth
of online.
<tstein> Groups like IAB are critical to the future
of interactive advertising
<Shannon> I am not familiar with the IAB, what is it?!
<tstein> The Interactive Advertising Bureau -- www.iab.net
<kme211> you can download some of their reports on their
website
<tstein> Yes. Good stuff. And a great background on
the prevailing issues pertaining to the interactive marketing
category.
<tstein> Any of you guys planning to pursue interactive
on the agency or client side?
<kme211> yes
<kme211> I am taking an internet marketing class right
now
<kme211> and it is really interesting
<tstein> It's a tough time to bust into the ad world
right now. Hopefully that will change in the months to come.
But interactive skills/knowledge are key.
<Shannon> So people are using the Internet more as a
news resource, etc, but marketers still aren't capturing it.
Do you think they're wary of annoying the public in the way
that banner ads did, partly as you mentioned, because they
don't really understand the possibilities?!
<tstein> I think they don't understand the possibilities
-- the ways to connect and interact with target audience in
a very deep and immersive way.
<Shannon> I have an Internet Service background, which
is why the interactive stuff interests me, but I'm a bit wary
of the creative aspects of advertising...
<tstein> In what way Shannon?
<Shannon> My marketing class never really got into the
interactive segment.
<tstein> Are you wary in that you haven't been exposed
to it?
<Shannon> My thinking is that to be involved with advertising
you need to be creative, which makes me question my own skills,
to determine what I could really bring to it. I think there
are a lot of issues involved that have to be taken into account
when developing advertising of any kind, but that this world,
and this country, rush through things, etc. Plus I tend to
want to be involved in many aspects at once, and I think that
it would be hard to focus in on any one specifically.
<tstein> Shannon, you may be cut out for account management
or perhaps media. Every function in advertising is to an extent
creative, but these other areas have to do with focusing on
business objectives, planning/analysis, client liaison and
the like.
<kme211> is your agency exclusively e-marketing?
<kme211> or do you also cover traditional methods?
<tstein> no. we do both e-marketing and traditional
-- print, broadcast, direct, etc.
<kme211> how much marketing research do you deal with?
<kme211> or is that more client side?
<tstein> a lot. We continually evaluate 3rd party research.
And we continually conduct our own. Research is a hugely important
tool for strategy development and ultimately even creative
development.
<Amy> do you think there is a growing need for Websites
targeted to minority groups?
<tstein> Probably, Amy, although there are no lack of
these sites. What we do know is that minorities -- African-American
and Hispanic -- are embracing the web very quickly. The penetration
rates are very high -- much higher than other groups.
<kme211>I heard the statistic that on average people
spend 10 seconds per homepage...if this is true, and people
just want to go to the homepage to get somewhere else, wouldn't
it be a good idea to place advertisements on a page where
the viewer is likely to spend more time?
<tstein> That's a new statistic for me. But many people
go to a home page, know it well, and use it purely to navigate
deeper to content they're interested in. Advertisers place
ads on those deeper pages. These are much more valuable ads,
because they can be more closely aligned with consumers' interests,
we call this affinity.
<kme211> are these ads more expensive?
<kme211> to purchase?
<tstein> Yes, these ads are considerably
more expensive.
<Amy> What about gay websites?
<tstein> Lots of gay sites out there.
Always room for good sites, though. We have certainly not
maxed out on good web sites. The good ones are relatively
few.
<kme211> do companies advertise their own products on
deeper pages frequently so that they can take advantage of
the customers on their site?
<tstein> do you mean their own products on their own
sites?
<kme211> I mean if someone is purchasing something does
the company frequently push another product on a pop=up ad?
<kme211> or is that too pushy
<kme211> aside from amazon
<tstein> It sometimes is done. But again, you don't
want to do anything that might distract a purchaser from completing
a purchase. That would be self defeating. What a lot of advertisers
do is deliver a pop-up once the purchase is completed.
<esohe> Do you think pop-ups or pop-unders are really
effective in getting an ad campaign across? Or do most consumers
find them annoying?
<tstein> They are annoying. In a lot of cases, they
are also effective. What the advertiser has to weigh is whether
the effective response rates are concealing consumer annoyance
and dissatisfaction that rub off on their perception of the
brand/company.
<kme211> but isn't the click through rate close to 0%?
<tstein> Not on pop ups and pop unders. The CTR for
banners on average is about .2-.3%
<kme211> oh okay
<esohe> but would you find an eyeblaster or superstitial
is more effective in actually measuring the effectiveness
of a campaign? or are they the same?
<tstein> Depends on how you are measuring the campaign,
what your objectives are. EB or Superstitials will deliver
better response rates. They also are considerably more costly.
So they have to really deliver high response rates to justify
themselves on an ROI basis.
<esohe> I see
<esohe> what is ROI
<tstein> Return on Investment.
<esohe> ok
<tstein> Further, you also have to measure residual,
beyond-click value. People may act later and not by clicking.
There may be positive impact on brand awareness, recall and
purchase intent.
<esohe> so the most important thing it sounds like is
that the ad gets out there---regardless if you know how effective
it really was?
<tstein> wrong. The most important thing
is that the advertising is effective. That you set realistic
goals, and work to achieve them
<kme211> how do you measure the effectiveness?
<kme211> such as the brand awareness that it generates?
<tstein> you measure effectiveness based on the campaign
objectives. Is the objective to sell product. To generate
awareness. To move people from interest to consideration/trial.
To implement a sales promotion.
<kme211> but how do you really measure the 'awareness'
of the customer as a result of your ads
<kme211> surveys?
<esohe> exactly
<esohe> that is my question?
<tstein> you conduct pre- and post-campaign research.
It's quite easy to ascertain awareness.
<esohe> how do you REALLY know how effective your ad
is/was?
<kme211> does your agency do that or do you outsource
it?
<tstein> We do some of this, but mostly we outsource.
<esohe> can you recommend any books/classes people should
take to better familiarize themselves with the terms for online
advertising?
<tstein> the IAB has a terrific glossary of terms. Get
it at their web site -- iab.net
<esohe> thank you
<kme211> thank you so much tom
<tstein> you're welcome
<moderator> Thanks for joining us.
Content Master, aef.com
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